Dr. Debi Lynes interviews Geoff Roehll about designing the outdoors for any stage in life
(duration: 35 minutes 31 seconds)
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Takeaways
By nature, anything in the out of doors is therapeutic and is a conduit to health and wellness.
What biophilia means simply is bringing the outside inside.
Transcript
Debi Lynes: 00:03 Hi and welcome to aging in place for every stage in life. What if you could visit or have a home that would accommodate anyone at any age, any physical ability at any time? How cool would that be? That’s what we’re doing here at aging in place. Why me? Because I’m a doctor of psychology and I specialize in physical spaces and health and wellness. Also, I love designing with intent at any age. Why now? Because we the baby boomers want to age in place gracefully and we want our families around us as much as we can and why you the audience? Because we want you to experience what it’s like to have a home that’s safe, aesthetically pleasing and that you can live in at any age with any ability at any time. I’d like to introduce you now to aging in place podcast for every stage in life.
Debi Lynes: 01:05 We are here today on this episode of aging in place at any stage in life with Geoff Roehll from Hitchcock Designs. Geoff, I really appreciate you joining us today. One of the things I feel really strongly about is bringing the out of doors inside and the out of doors as a source of health and wellness. What I would love to do, Geoff, is talk a little bit to you about what you do about the importance of landscape design and landscape architecture really in the whole scheme of living. And then we’ll kind of get to more specifics.
Geoff Roehll: 01:41 Sure. As a landscape architect for the past 30 years, I’ve kind of focused my career on exactly that type of environment where the outdoor environment can provide an opportunity for folks and the markets that I serve are primarily in the senior living arena. So we’re trying to make better places to live and also in the hospital environments where we’re trying to create a place where not only family and staff, but patients can have potentially a better outcome.
Debi Lynes: 02:13 Why is the outdoors so important?
Geoff Roehll: 02:16 You know, it’s interesting, I think intuitively all the way back to Zen gardens and the way that, the Japanese have treated the outdoor environment is, a source of relaxation. Inherently, they felt that they felt better outside. And I think people do that when they walked outside or they walked into a greenhouse, they took a breath of fresh air and they just inherently felt better. There’s a concept called biophilia design or the biophilia hypothesis, which basically says that humans are innately attracted to the natural environment. So they like being surrounded by natural light. They liked being surrounded by winds and other calming elements. They liked being surrounded in nature and flowers and the color and the wildlife. They’re inherently attracted to that. It wasn’t until more recently back in 1985 that there was research done to see if we can prove this hypothesis, that being exposed to the natural environment can be positive.
Geoff Roehll: 03:19 And so one of the things that was done at Texas A&M was the primary research to this, where they monitored and measured people’s recovery rates, when they’re exposed to the natural environment and when they’re not. And they found evidence that the ones that recovered, with a natural view of a natural environment, use less pain medication and they have less post recovery surgery time. So, and this wasn’t designers doing the research, these are researchers doing the research. I’m not a researcher. What we do is we apply the research to the landscape. Since then, several other studies have been conducted and one specifically that was done for senior living communities and it was done at an Alzheimer’s wing and they monitored, about 25 residents over a five year period of time that we’re all suffering from dementia. One of the things that they recorded was the type of medications that they were using, their behaviors, what kind of aggressive behaviors they had, what their blood pressure was, what their indications were, and then how they felt.
Geoff Roehll: 04:31 They monitored those behaviors and medications. One of the things they measured was their weight and weight loss is a key indicator of failing health with dementia. And so, they monitored that over five years and then they restricted and, restricted access to the outdoor environment for certain ones. So some only had as little as five minutes in the garden and others had up to a half hour in the garden. And what they discovered over that five year period when they looked at the behaviors and the physiological attributes, the ones that had a longer period of time in the garden had marked improvement over the ones that didn’t. And so it was the first time that there was really credible evidence that exposure to the natural environment could have a positive influence on whether it’s a residence wellbeing or whether it’s a patient’s outcome.
Debi Lynes: 05:24 So let me ask you this. We’ve kind of generalized that. How do I bring it back to the home environment?
Geoff Roehll: 05:30 It’s one of the things that we promote all the time. We take the same philosophies that we have for a healing garden, whether it be in a senior living environment or a hospital, why not apply that to a college campus and create a respite garden? Where is there more stress? In colleges. You know, why not an office buildings? You know, you used to think about the old atrium gardens that were in older buildings. Why not create a space designated for the users of that office building, that it is a respite and it is a retreat. One of the other elements that we’ve been applying it to in hospitals and senior living environments is for the caretakers. Why not have a garden setting for a caretaker and because talk about stress, it’s the number one element within senior living environments is keeping and retaining key staff people.
Geoff Roehll: 06:30 If you can create an environment that gives them an opportunity where they can get a respite and get away from the stress, that stressful environment that makes their quality of life better as an employee; then we’re doing good as well. We recently completed at a local high school an honor garden that has all of the same elements that we talk about within a healing garden, but within a high school setting. And so now at lunch breaks and in good weather, you’re utilizing that space for socialization for some outdoor classes, art displays. So It is that tie of creating an outdoor environment where you’re attracting people from an institution into an outdoor environment.
Debi Lynes: 07:12 I think it’s really interesting when we start talking about doing things like honor gardens, what did that actually look like physically?
Geoff Roehll: 07:19 Well, it was a space. They had a courtyard. The interesting part of the reason it’s called an honor garden is they had the unfortunate circumstance where they had several students who, while they were students, pass away, whether it be through illness or car wrecks, and some of the parents and families and friends of the students who passed away wanted to create a Memorial on the campus of the high school for those students. And it got to be a little, consuming about where these were going. Does a popular student get a bigger one and a less popular student get not so big of one. So they wanted to bring some kind of political correctness to how they represent, who gets memorialized and not. And so they created, instead a Memorial garden. We were the ones who said, why don’t we honor the life of the student as opposed to memorializing the death.
Geoff Roehll: 08:14 And so we wanted to create an honor and to honor the life of the student who passed. We chose a courtyard space that was defined by the building itself. It happened to be adjacent to the cafeteria. And so it was convenient that the space is probably less than an acre, probably about a quarter of an acre in size. It has a variety of seating areas in it, because one of the elements within the landscape that we like is to provide choices on a day. Like today in Chicago, you wouldn’t want to sit outside, but if it was 70 degrees, you would want to be sitting in the sun. But if it was 90 degrees, you would want to find a shady spot.
Debi Lynes: 08:55 You want for any kind of outside living for there to be choices.
Geoff Roehll: 09:00 Absolutely. Choices are important, whether it’s the physical environment, how the temperature feels, and also socially in some of our healthcare settings we want a doctor and a patient to go outside and they might be in a more private conversation. They want a section within the garden that they can have that private conversation. We also in our senior living environments like to incorporate areas for socialization. So we’ll have areas within that garden that enable and has the flexibility for those chairs and tables and furnishings to offer more of a social representation.
Debi Lynes: 09:41 One of the things we talk about all the time about aging in place is that it really isn’t about getting older. It’s about anyone, at any time, at any stage in life, with any physical ability. I tell you what I think we’d like to do is we’re going to take a quick break. We’ve really given a wonderful overview of what landscape architecture is and what you specifically do and why you’re really qualified and a great candidate to talk to us today about aging in place on the podcast. When we come back. I’d love to talk a little bit about if I live in an apartment, if I live with my grandchildren, if I only have a deck, if I don’t have anything but the inside of a window sill, what are some things that I can do to age in place gracefully? Stay with us. We’ll be right back. Again, we’re with Geoff Roehll, Landscape Architect.
Debi Lynes: 10:33 Hi, I’m Dr. Debi Lynes. Design elements are psychologically and physically supportive and conducive to health and wellness. To learn more about what Lynes on Design can do for you, for more information, on certified aging in place and facilitative and supportive design. Look for us at lynesondesign.com. That’s L Y N E S on design dot com.
Debi Lynes: 10:58 We are back here on aging in place. We are talking with Geoff Roehll who is a landscape architect and that brings us to some questions. We had been talking really more broad-spectrum about some of the things that you do with healing spaces with senior living facilities and hospitals and really how to generalize that to a population. Whether I have a one-year-old or a 91-year-old, how we pull all of this together. One of the things I really want to talk about is elements of landscaping that can really entice someone and why biophilia is so important. Why landscaping is so important, why bring in the outside in is so important.
Geoff Roehll: 11:41 Yeah, that’s a great question Debi. And I think the idea of engaging the senses is what this is all about. Whenever we create these environments, whether they’re for young kids or for people engaging the senses is what really matters.
Debi Lynes: 11:57 Let me ask you what that really means. Talk to me about what that specifically means and why engaging the senses is so important.
Geoff Roehll: 12:04 Yeah. I’m not sure if we’ve fully understand why it’s important, although we know that the outcomes of people who are engaged with those senses feel better. I’m not sure if anybody really has done the research as to why or what physiological things occur in the brain that makes someone feel better. We know that one of the elements that we like to engage is when somebody goes outdoors, there’s a change in temperature. So there’s a sensory thing that is either positive or negative. It can be really humid and hot out or it could be a little bit more comfortable out, but when somebody might fit that fresh breeze that they were hot inside and they hit that fresh breeze and it did two things, made them feel better physically, but, it was also very calming and soothing. We look at all of the senses. And another one that I just mentioned with the wind is sound.
Geoff Roehll: 13:02 What does that wind and what plants does it hit? It creates that rustling noise that is calming or is it the waves in the background? We all sat on the beach. Why do you feel good when you go to the beach? There’s all these senses that are engaged that are positive. We’re creating these positive distractions. Other senses that we look at are color, sight and whether it’s something that is visually stimulating. When we look at our plant palette we are looking at plants that are complementary to one another. Some might have very coarse textures and some have very fine textures. Sometimes we’ll put a green backdrop with something very vibrant in the foreground to create that sensory contrast combined, with the things that you hear, and the things that you can feel. Then also the things that you can smell.
Geoff Roehll: 14:02 Smell is another sense that we like to entice in the environment that some people find very, very refreshing and some people in certain health conditions can find kind of nauseating. I think smell is an important sense that, gets overlooked sometimes in the garden setting and in particular an area that we pay close attention to the smells are in our cancer gardens. Cancer gardens are designed specifically with the cancer patient front and center because that’s who the ultimate person that we’re designing that space for. You could also design it for staff and families, but when you’re dealing specifically with the cancer patient, because of the type of treatments that they’re going in, they become very photosensitive. So sunlight is a real issue where glare can be very painful. So creating an environment that has the choice of finding deep shade really matters.
Geoff Roehll: 15:03 A lot of times, you’ll see the cancer patients who are going through chemotherapy go in these gardens settings with the dark, heavy sunglasses on. It’s because the glare can be very painful for them. Similarly, the smell. The smell of a fresh lilac in the springtime to you and I in a very healthy condition, maybe is very, very appealing, but somebody going through chemotherapy, it can make them nauseous. And so we have to balance that when we’re thinking about design within a garden setting, what elements are going to make someone feel comfortable? And if you’re healthy, it’s different than if you’re healing. Understanding what those elements are that we’re including in the garden. Plants that don’t have quite as much odor to them as others. There’s specific pallets that we can choose from that those plants are a difference that still offer the color and the other sensory components.
Debi Lynes: 15:58 So we’ve talked about temperature. We’ve talked about wind. We’re talking about all the different senses. Talk to me about natural light, different kinds of light. What about a nature experience or an outdoor experience in the evening as well as in the day?
Geoff Roehll: 16:16 Yeah, I think that’s an important component. You know, especially in Chicago, where I live, where it gets dark and about four o’clock in the afternoon, we just did a cancer garden where the infusion rooms overlook the natural environment and they wanted to do something to make it more attractive at nighttime because some of those patients are coming after work. They’re not getting there until 3:00, 3:30 or 4:00 o’clock. It’s starting to turn dark and the garden is in the dark. So what elements of the landscape that we can add that are sensory, that can be viewed from the indoors out. And that’s where lighting has really become popular. The use of LED lighting technologies that have changing colors. We can introduce those elements within the landscape. And let’s say you have an evergreen backdrop, we can incorporate colored light as part of the sensory experience from somebody in an infusion room is going to get the same benefits that you and I might get in our backyard. Or you know, a children’s environment where you’re trying to create a very playful setting you can do with somebody in an infusion room.
Debi Lynes: 17:30 It’s really interesting to me. One of the things I’m thinking about as we’re talking is how to take some of these things and again, integrate them into just the home environment. And when we’re talking about behavioral health centers, we’re talking about hospitals, we’re talking about, you know, five-year-olds, 30 year olds, 80 year olds. It seems like nature and the natural environment is a great way to connect people. And I often times think, and I think you and I have talked about this before, I love to… I don’t have a lot of time or a lot of space, but I love raising my herbs. I love how they smell. I love how they taste. I love what I can do with them. Do you find that there is a connection between the outdoors, how people relate, how you can sort of bring people together just organically?
Geoff Roehll: 18:16 Well, I think the use of plants is a great therapeutic element. Matter of fact, there’s an entire profession called horticulture therapy where these therapists utilize plants to help heal. At Rogers Memorial hospital, they have a courtyard within an adolescent wing where they’re treating young kids with mental disorders, behavioral disorders, and they’re working with these patients for anywhere from 30 to 90 days. And they use horticulture therapy as one of their treatment protocols in an outdoor setting. So they developed a garden that has a greenhouse component to it and they’re working with kids with plants so they can sew the seeds, they see the certain seed germinate now they have to take care of the plant. So every day they have to go down and water it. So they have a responsibility. They have to then watch it grow and understand the different cycles. It’s going to bloom and then it’s maybe producing fruit. Some of them are producing herbs that they make other elements out of, but it’s an amazing transformation of having a garden setting to do those therapies in. They get much greater benefit and impact when they’re conducting the therapies in that garden setting than when they don’t.
Debi Lynes: 19:37 Yeah. Well, let’s think about this. Let’s think about young children and let’s think about older adults and those in between. I think that the idea of being able to plant a seed, watch it grow, look at the life cycle of it. Talk about giving you a sense of purpose and being needed in a time where it may be tough to find purpose.
Geoff Roehll: 20:00 Absolutely. And then doing that in an outdoor setting where you’re not in an institution where people are telling you what to do, you’re in a natural environment where you’re surrounded by birds chirping and the wind blowing into the evergreen tree and the smell of the evergreen tree. You’re engaging the senses differently. If you’re in your therapist’s office and it smells funny and the door’s locked and you’re confined by four walls, your behaviors are different than if you’re outdoors and you hear a bird chirp, or if there’s a water feature gurgling in the background that makes you calm down. And it’s that calming environment that I think that they’re getting effective treatment from.
Debi Lynes: 20:44 Geoff one of the things I would love to do, we’re to take a quick break, is come back and share a beautiful story that you shared with me about a woman who was moving from her home to an apartment and how you and your group creatively brought the outside in for her and made the transition much easier. Stay with us. We’ll be back on the aging in place podcast.
Henrik de Gyor: 21:08 Hi, I’m Henrik, the producer of aging in place podcast. If you’d like more information and transcripts of this podcast, visit aginginplacepodcast.com . And now back to Debi Lynes with the next segment of aging in place podcast for every stage in life.
Debi Lynes: 21:27 We are back here on the aging in place podcast. We’re here with Geoff Roehll and we’ve been talking about biophilia. We’ve been talking about landscaping. We’ve been talking about using our senses. We’ve been talking about interconnectedness. We’ve been talking about how bringing the outside in can create a feeling of health and wellness. Now I’d like to talk about a story that you told me that just resonated with all of us here in the room. We’d like to share with the audience about a woman that was moving to an apartment from a home she’d lived in all of her life.
Geoff Roehll: 22:01 Right. This was a wonderful opportunity where a lady who was aging in place in her home, her spouse had passed away recently. Her family had moved away and so her kids no longer lived in the area. It was getting unsafe for her and so she needed to find a safer living environment. She chose a facility, that was much like an apartment. It was independent living within a retirement community. However, she was a naturalist. She loved the outdoor environment and she loved her backyard and she had multiple fruit trees in our backyard along with some other terrific vegetation. Well, the sales representatives who sold her the apartment, said that they would love to move her into the new apartment, but they also wanted to see if we could take a look at her fruit trees to see if we could move them as well. Quite honestly, she was worried about what would happen to her fruit trees.
Debi Lynes: 23:01 Oh, I love that. I get that.
Geoff Roehll: 23:04 And so we took the extra step and went to her house. She was in the process of transitioning to the apartment, so she was getting ready to move out and we looked at the plants that she had in her backyard and we agreed that several of the fruit trees could be very easily relocated. And so we decided to move about a half a dozen of these fruit trees. But we asked the sales person where the room was. Fortunately, she had a room on the first floor and we were able to go into her room and look out her window while we have the contractor placed the fruit trees and we put them in an area that when she moved into her room there were her fruit trees, you know, right there that she could continue to nurture and take forward. And that made her transition to this next level of her life, so much easier to accept. She knew that her fruit trees were going to be well taken care of because she could do that.
Debi Lynes: 24:00 Well, talk to me if you will, about people of different disabilities or abilities, if I can use it that way. You know, I’ve oftentimes wondered if you’re in a wheelchair or if I’m not quite as mobile as I was. The thought of bending over to do gardening, even if it’s just a tiny plot is really challenging. Are there sort of tips or rules or techniques that we can use that really make a planting and having a garden more accessible or easier?
Geoff Roehll: 24:32 That’s a great comment because most gardening is done on the ground and it’s difficult for older adults or some people with different levels of ability to reach. And so raising the plants, so they’re the elevation where they need to be is desirable. You can do that in many ways. We’ve designed numerous raised benches that allow for someone in a wheelchair to access the plants, like a kitchen table, but you’ve got to have a location for their feet to go. And that can be expensive. It could be an expensive detail. But what we found really effective that could be done at home, or it could be done in an institution, is the use of round circular planters, freestanding planters, similar to the clay pots. And so by using these clay pots, they might be 24 inches tall and they might be 30 inches tall and they might be 36 inches tall. But the fact that they’re round means that they can be accessed by somebody, a wheelchair, and all sides of it. So you can maintain the vegetables or you can maintain the herbs or you can maintain the flowers. We do cutting gardens in these raised beds, they’re easy for staff to maintain, but more importantly is it gives the residents the right elevation to work with these plants.
Debi Lynes: 25:49 I never even thought about that. What about square planters? Are there advantages or disadvantages to those? You said that you really like round. Why is that?
Geoff Roehll: 25:59 I like round. I think square is fine as long as it’s outside corners. I mentioned before the idea of having a planter that has an inside corner, which means you have an intersection of two walls and if you’re in a wheelchair you can imagine to try to get to the corner of that inside corner. You can’t because your feet are in the way. We tried to design those planters, if they’re a rectangular planter, that’s fine. If it’s a rectangular planter that is T-shaped, you can see how all of a sudden you have two inside corners that really aren’t accessible. So we would put 45 degree angles in those corners so that somebody in a wheelchair has the ability get all the way around that planter. The height of the planter, we like the idea of that it can vary. We had one designed by one of our guys who was six foot two and notice that everybody working on it was less than five feet tall.
Geoff Roehll: 26:58 And so their ergonomics matter when you’re trying to design these environments, especially with the older adults or with kids. You know with kids, you’ve got a very similar challenge. You know, you got to make the planters a little bit lower. That’s why we like those freestanding planters. They’re inexpensive. You can get them in the right height. Even done, instead of a horizontal garden, we’ve done a vertical garden where we take a planted area, we put a grid across the front that’s very similar to a channeling fence. Plastic up against that and then it’s back filled with top soil and it gives somebody with different levels of ability and different height challenges, the ability to plant within a vertical surface and then watch it grow.
Debi Lynes: 27:46 Are there times where it’s not just about the plant, but it’s also about the wildlife that surrounds the plant that’s important?
Geoff Roehll: 27:55 Yeah. I think when we say natural environment, people think automatically of plants, but I think it’s a variety of things, the flora and the fauna. We introduce plants that attract butterflies, for example. It’s a great element. It adds to that positive distraction that we talked about earlier of creating those elements of landscape. It just so happens that the plants that are providing that visual sensory experience are also attracted to butterflies. So butterflies bring in butterflies into a garden are desirable. Bringing birds into a garden setting. So providing fruit trees that, you know, like a service berry where the robins might want to come in and nibble on the service berries is something that we see is a desirable element within these garden settings.
Debi Lynes: 28:45 It makes so much sense to me. If I were to ask you basically, what are a couple of things that you would recommend to anyone who’s starting out creating a natural environment? Are there ways to begin? Are there places to… where do I start I guess is what I’m asking you?
Geoff Roehll: 29:04 Yeah. I think one of the things I mentioned earlier is that the idea of, the orientation of your home starting way back from the apartment that you’re going to be renting. Is that the South face or is it the West face? Is the balcony facing the right view? All of those elements. So when you purchase your home or you’re moving into that apartment, be conscious of thinking about the orientation. If there’s a choice between a unit on the East side and the West side, think about what it’s going to be like on your patio in the hot afternoon sun or where the winter breeze is going to be coming from or that summer breeze. Do the windows move? In other words, do you have fixed windows or do you have the ability to open your window to get natural ventilation? Are there skylights?
Geoff Roehll: 29:53 I think another element within that that people respond well to is when there’s a room with a skylight. So I think even stepping back further is the actual environment that you’re moving into and then also being conscious of what the views are from when you’re in the room. Let’s say that you’re not as mobile as you were in the past or there might be stairs going out to the environment, the view of what you’re looking at from indoors to out matters. And so when, if you buy a new fruit tree, do what we did and go inside and look at the view and then think about where the placement of that plant is going to be, whether it’s a fruit tree or a lilac or some sort of flower garden to get the best value out of its location.
Debi Lynes: 30:38 Let me ask you this, we’re almost out of time and I would be remiss in not asking you, is there somewhere or a resource or some places that we could go if we’re interested, both in biophilia, in landscaping, in creating a beautiful environment out of doors as we age?
Geoff Roehll: 30:58 Yeah, there’s a terrific resource that I utilize a lot. It’s called the therapeutic landscapes network. And just Google therapeutic landscapes network and you’ll find their a website and it’s chockfull of wonderful information, whether it’s books that have been written on biophilia, books written on research, the actual research papers that have been published it includes a list of, in your area who are landscape architects, who design therapeutic environments. It includes a lot of the research that we discussed today. It’s a great place that people can go to. A lot of the information with links that take you so you can at least try to find the path of information that you’re looking for. It’s a great place to start.
Debi Lynes: 31:43 One of my takeaways today is by nature, anything in the out of doors is therapeutic and is a conduit to health and wellness. I really appreciate you joining us today. We appreciate everyone for joining us today here on aging in place podcast. Goeff Roehll, Thank you so much.
Geoff Roehll: 32:01 My name is Goeff Roehll, and I’m a landscape architect with Hitchcock Design Group. You can reach me at GROEHLL@hitchcockdesigngroup.com. Thank you, everybody.
Erin Lentz: 32:14 For podcasts, links, information and media inquiries. Please visit our website at aginginplacepodcasts.com. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram as our host Debi Lynes and her expert guests discuss relevant topics for creating a home for all decades in life. Don’t miss our weekly podcast on aging in place for every stage in life. Transition through life where you are with the comfort and ease deserve. Discover how you can start creating a home that will adapt to you as you journey through life and the changes it will bring.
Debi Lynes: 32:46 I’d like to introduce you to a friend of mine, Tracy. Tracy is naturally curious and always creative and when we were doing the aging in place podcast, she said there are so many quick tips that I can think of offhand. My response, “who knew”. She’s going to be with us every week, giving us a quick tip and a hint that is a practical application.
Tracy Snelling: 33:15 Thanks, Debi! Cut the rug out. Area rugs, throw rugs, kitchen rugs are all dangerous when it comes to aging in place. From a toddler learning to walk to your seniors having walkers or canes. Rugs can be hazardous as pretty as they look, safety needs to come first. Tripping and falling can be a grueling ordeal for any age and falling can lead the hospitals, rehabs, and even more health issues. If you feel you cannot do without that floral design on your floor, please make sure you take precautions. First, look for a rug with no fringe or any thickness on the edge. Secondly, on the market are several products. Rug tape, when applied properly, will do the trick. Make sure you play it all the way around your rug to adhere all the edges to the floor, not just the middle. Tripping on the rug happens at the edge. Remember that, and that’s your “Who Knew!”
Debi Lynes: 34:18 Goeff Roehll was with us this week and he’s a landscape architect. Here’s my takeaway. The word biophilia. What biophilia means simply is bringing the outside inside and what does that look like? It can look like raising an herb smelling the herb eating them. You’re bringing the outside inside. It can mean deck gardening. It can mean doing vertical gardening. It can mean having a painting of a scene. All of these things promote health and wellness and are so important as we age in place at any stage in life.
Henrik de Gyor: 35:01 Aging in Place Podcast is hosted by Debi Lynes, marketing by Erin Lentz and produced by Henrik de Gyor. If you have any comments or questions, send an email to debi@aginginplacepodcast.com we would love to hear from you.
If you’re interested in advertising or sponsoring this podcast, email us at pr@aginginplacepodcast.com.
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